I have been hanging out on Birmingham's Southside since I was 11. I attended Ramsay High School which is a few blocks from Five Points South. I also attended John Carroll High School which was on Highland Avenue. When I returned home from UVA, I worked at UAB. So most of my academic and professional life were spent on the Southside.
There weren't any national coffee chains back then. There was a convenience store where Ruby Tuesday's sits. There was a different fountain in front of the Greek Orthodox Church. If we were heading downtown, it meant that we had crossed from south to north.
So when did the Southside become part of downtown? Was it always part of the downtown area? Several organizations will ask, "Would you like our "south of town" or "downtown" location?" When I look at the address of the "downtown" location, it is on the Southside.
When I volunteered for ONB, I recall hearing the term "City Center" to describe the Civic Center to Vulcan as the northern and southern borders. So am I alone in wondering when the Southside became part of downtown Birmingham?
my guess is that as the suburban sprawl crept further away from Downtown and Southside, all those suburbanites who rarely, if ever, visted inside our city limits began to just lump the two areas together into one big catch-all area.
ReplyDeleteI ,too, am intrigued by that strange new inclusion of the Southside as part of downtown.
ReplyDeleteIt was always my understanding that the downtown area referred to the area from Morris Avenue spreading North.
In fact, I remember discussions that centered around how to revive downtown. Downtown Birmingham was where you could get hot dogs ,haircuts, shoes shined ,etc.It was the area in need of resurrection as opposed to the Southside,which was experiencing slow steady growth.
The culture and flavor of the Southside was distinct and far more culturally diverse than that of the northern avenues.Perhaps the continued growth and expansion of UAB is what has caused this recent inclusion(redefining the parameters of downtown). HMMMM??
Southside is so not downtown Bham.
ReplyDeleteI would call Southside the "social center". It has had its ups and downs but always will remain the heart of Birimingham. I can't help but think that is due in large part to the anchor that Highlands Bar and Grill, Golden Temple and the Pancake House serve. I just don't know what i would do if the Pancake House left!
Also, i think downtown Birmingham is moving toward becoming more of a city center, but its not there yet. Perhaps as more residential units are occupied, the city center will emerge. Even then, it will be a distinct "district" in the Birmingham fabric- much like Lakeside, Forest Park, ect.
It sounds like I am not alone in my thoughts. I sometimes wonder if it is that more recent transplants to Birmingham don't see the dividing line of the railroad.
ReplyDeleteAnother incidence relates to when I tell people, I will see you at Surin & Co. or Surin downtown. I mean 3rd Avenue N. They frequently call me from 11th Avenue So. It has happened frequently with transplants who live on 280. They never lived in the city limits.
I'm in agreement with you, Bettina. It seems for those whose formative years did not take place in or near Southside, anything north of Red Mountain counts as "downtown Birmingham." Those in the know, however, know that Downtown starts at the peanut place and goes north. I'm still fuzzy on the difference between Norwood and North Birmingham.
ReplyDeleteLike you, I consider downtown and southside to be separate. Some people think of Legion Field and other places as downtown, too. For me, downtown is bound by the railroad tracks, I-65, I-20/59 and Red Mtn. Expressway. The media perpetuates this - makes you cringe when a crime is reported "downtown." On the other hand, when the nightlife of 5 Pts and Lakeview are included as part of the "city center," I guess that could be helpful in creating the synergy to get more momentum going for development downtown. But here's a question I've had for a while. Why do the local TV stations report temperatures from the Jimmie Hale Mission? Wouldn't it be better to do it from the McWane Science Center? That's actually downtown. It's science. And it brands downtown as a place for entertainment instead of the homelessness that scares people away. - Jay
ReplyDeleteYes, I'm an outsider, but I think it depends on what your definition of City Center is. If you're thinking about only the area where work is done between 8 a.m. - 5 p.m. then yes, the City Center should only include what's really the Central Business District.
ReplyDeleteWhile folks have lived downtown before, many of the structures that would let folks know that are not here anymore. The new group of "loft dwellers" are still fairly recent. The majority of the city's "downtown" activities take place both in the CBD and on Southside - on UAB's campus and the surrounding neighborhoods. I'd count both areas as a City Center. When you look at the city on a map, that section is at the center of what's going on and where most of your activities will be taking place as we move forward. That's how most cities define a city center - it will include downtown, but it will also include those neighborhoods nearby that make downtown possible.
I can see where you're coming from being from New York. When "outsiders" say they're going downtown, they mean that they're going to Manhattan - and probably anywhere south of 110th Street. Most of us know that downtown is really a state of mind, inasmuch that we're traveling south in Manhattan.
As long as I can remember, Southside was never considered part of Downtown Birmingham. With the growth and expansion of UAB, the Southside became its own community--on the other end of 20th Street and Morris Avenue. I know that I've been away from Birmingham for 1 1/2 years now, but it seems that not much has changed in terms of activity. I saw some buildings that have been restored into lofts, studios, and condominiums within the "City Center" but not much retail (I noticed that Belk's, formerly Parisian, closed earlier this year). In my area of Arlington South (VA), new buildings are being built for commercial, retail, and residential housing. The closest supermarket was shut down in order to build a new building.
ReplyDeleteThanks Stephanie. It has been great to hear different perspectives. I had another conversation with a friend yesterday evening about this issue. Within Southside, there are also distinct areas such as the Medical Center Complex which includes UAB, VA, Children's, Eye Foundation Hospital, Cooper Green Mercy...
ReplyDeleteOur little city is slowly evolving, but without following any master plan...what is it growing into? If you ask me...the city has 3 distinct sections now. Downtown (the north side), UAB, and the rest of the Southside in its current state. I have heard people lump the northern and southern sections together as of recent. It is probably in an effort to make city dwellers feel that they are all apart of the same community. To me Andre is on the money with the CBD definition.
ReplyDeleteIn the past, it was funny to hear people lump it all together. They were either from the rural sections of the state and Birmingham was this huge metropolis or they had missed the distinct feel downtown had when there were real stores down there like Blach's, Parisian, Pizitz, Brombergs, and my dad's favorite Odum Bowers & White.
The Southside has been that hub for all things artsy for as long as I can remember. I too remember haning out on the Southside at Ramsay and John Carroll, although I went to school at Gardendale and later to Samford. It was good to have friends that went to schools in the city. From them, I learned about little places like Marty's and Cosmo's. The real diversity of the area was apparent when my brother and I ran the 22nd Street Jazz Cafe in 1999 and 2000.
I don't mind the city evolving, but I would hate for it to lose its distinct iconic places for the sake of progression, as it has in the past. My parents tell me that the old train station was magnificent and should have been saved, but was torn down for the current post office. Let's support our local treasures and help to define the direction of the city. I hate having to say, "Remember when...."